Designing with Love
Hosted by Grand Canyon University (GCU) adjunct instructor and professional instructional designer Jackie Pelegrin, this podcast explores instructional design, e-learning, and how to incorporate AI technology into different aspects of your work. Tune in for expert tips, real-world insights, and inspiring stories from students, alumni, and leaders in the field.
Designing with Love
The Human Loop: How AI Can Transform Instructional Design with Nathalie Doremieux
Welcome to episode 32 of the Designing with Love podcast! In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Nathalie Doremieux, the co-founder of Podcast LeadFlow and an expert in the instructional design field.
Artificial Intelligence may be revolutionizing education, but are we using it effectively? In this eye-opening conversation with Nathalie, we dive deep into the reality of online learning and how to create experiences that actually work.
The statistics are sobering—only 3-5% of people typically complete online courses. But this isn't just a student motivation problem; it's a fundamental design issue. "People don't want more, they want results," Nathalie explains, challenging the common belief that more content equals more value. Together, we explore how instructional designers can help subject matter experts translate their expertise into programs that don't overwhelm learners but instead guide them systematically toward achievement.
Whether you're an instructional designer, educator, or business owner creating online programs, you'll walk away with actionable strategies for implementing AI thoughtfully, adapting to different learning styles, and focusing relentlessly on what matters most—learner results. This isn't just about better course design; it's about transforming how we think about learning in the digital age.
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Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast. I am your host, jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, gcu students, alumni and educators, welcome to episode 32 of the Designing with Love podcast. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Nathalie Dormeo, the co-founder of Podcast Lead Flow. Welcome, nathalie. Thank you so much for having me. Jackie, thank you, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So I am in France, so I am both French and American, and I have lived in the US for 10 years in the corporate world, so I'm a software engineer as a background. And then, in 2005, my husband and I decided to sell everything and move back to France, be closer to family, and then we ended up starting a business. So that was 20 years ago. So that was 20 years ago. That evolved a lot. I'd say that our primary services are building membership sites and online programs, so we do work with instructional designers as well, and we've really been involved with AI in the last five years and more, using AI as an accelerator, an amplifier, to help students get results faster and give them an extra level of support. And then in January, we launched Podcast Leapflow, which is basically a tool for podcasters to start conversations with our listeners, because we saw that there was a gap between the listener and the client right, it's more for, like, business owners.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's exciting. I love that and that the fact that you work with your husband. It shows that you have that close relationship where you can both take your talents and your skills and meld them together and be able to do that. So I love to hear about family owned businesses and that's because it really shows that start those strong ties and everything. So that's really great. I love that and I love that you're. You're in France, so that's. That's great, and you're close to family. That really helps.
Speaker 1:Definitely yes. So you mentioned, mentioned, you know you have many hats that you wear. It sounds like what do? What do you primarily do, um, at the company?
Speaker 2:then is there certain things that or you do, just you have your, your hat and everything pretty much so basically my my focus marketing and sales and I work with people one-on-one to basically help them design programs. So you know that they have an idea or they have a method or a system that works and they want to teach that online, but they have no idea how to turn that into a program that's not overwhelming. They have no idea how to turn that into a program that's not overwhelming.
Speaker 1:That gets people results. You know what I'm talking about right, right, exactly, yes.
Speaker 2:So I help people with that. It's really transitioned from just building the site as the tech person to really realizing that we were building all this platform and people were not being successful. Building all this platform and people were not being successful and I was like, okay, let me figure out. Like, what can I do, what can I learn to actually help them create programs that people actually not just buy but actually go through and get the result, because that's the ultimate success, right? So that's basically what I do. In a nutshell. I talk to a lot of people, I network a lot. You know, I collaborate a lot, and we were just sharing before we started to record that a portion of our business is by referral and just also students who are in an online program and they see our link in the footer. I'm like, oh, I like the way this is working. You know like I want something, I want the same, you know I want something like that. So, and it's been working pretty well for us.
Speaker 1:That's great. So you've been able to learn about the marketing and and also being able to really help with the instructional design aspect and making sure that these programs are not going to just come and go, but they're going to last and they're going to be around for a long time and get results, and that's mainly what that are necessary, that need to be done in the business.
Speaker 2:So you, you either get help or you, you get training, you learn right At least the minimum, so that you can. Otherwise you have a business, but you, you know you either don't have clients or you know like there is a piece that is missing, right. So it's never going to be that you wear all the hats and you know how to wear all the hats right. And sometimes there are things that we hate to do and we absolutely should not be doing them because we are not going to do a good job at them anyway right, right, that's so true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely yeah. And it sounds like you know, you, you have the interest because you saw a need and you you knew that you could fulfill that need. So sometimes it comes out of necessity, right, but sometimes it comes out of just pure interest in seeing that need and wanting to fill that. So it sounds like that's what you did.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and it's really been, because at the beginning we were really just building websites, you know, just regular websites, and we had an opportunity to create an online course for someone and I got into that and then even I think it's my husband, that and business partner that started to say but how can we improve the experience? Because it's terrible, you know. It's like people are in front of a computer and we give them all these videos to watch and say, ok, now go do it. It was like how can we try to replicate what is happening in a classroom, their ability, you know, for it to be a bit more interactive, their ability to ask questions right or to get feedback on their work, right? How can we create that online so that we'll have more people get results? Because at the time, it was like 3% to 5% of people only complete an online course which is not good.
Speaker 1:No, that's not good at all. Yeah, and it seems like a lot of times, online programs they just want to give all this information and they don't know how to segment it and they don't know how to make it so that it doesn't overwhelm learners. So exactly, yeah, so that's the part?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, like, they have an expertise and they think that because they know they have the expertise to turn that into a program that's effective. I mean, that's why instructional designers exist, right Right To do that and people are like no, no, this is my stuff, I know, and very often they would create something that looks good to them but that could feel either too overwhelming for people or too much theory, not enough doing, or videos, too long, not enough, like milestone and wings so that people stay motivated. So all these things they don't think about because they don't know. They don't know.
Speaker 1:That's true, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's very interesting because I do work with subject matter experts a lot in the industry and they know the content so well. They know that what they do. So, for example, I work with counselors because I work on counseling programs at the university and so it's very. But it's very interesting because they know their craft, they know what they're doing, but I and I know a lot about it. But I still have to keep myself away from the content per se in that sense, because I don't want to become the expert.
Speaker 1:they're the expert, but then when it comes to the instructional design, I give the suggestions, I ask the questions, I bring that out of them and say, ok, what, what at the end of this class do you want students to know be able to do at the end? And then that's where their expertise comes in. But then we make it to where it makes sense to students, because if they were to just write it and go off, it wouldn't be very good. So you know, but they're good at what they do, they're good at the instruction aspect, and then I'm good at the curriculum side of it and just helping it to make sense. So it all comes together as this big, you know beautiful type of thing at the end. So, but it takes work and so it sounds like you are able to work with those experts and really help them understand that the end product is what you're looking at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And then often people are like they want to give more. You know, there is this notion that if we give them more, it will have more value. It's like people don't want more, they don't want to watch more videos, they want results. If you can give it to them with less, even better, right, yes, and so when? When it doesn't? So maybe we'll talk about that, I don't know like, but like when, when we look, like when we do an audit on a program, because people get stuck and they are not getting like the results, like they don't have like the number of students that actually complete, and things like that, then we look into at what step they are getting stuck and then, yes, we might add a tool, an extra resource, to figure out why people get stuck.
Speaker 2:If you think they should not spend so much time in this piece, what is it? Does it need to break to be broken down into two? Right, is it not actionable enough, like you know, like, is it standing on its own enough that they don't require to watch something else? You know that. You know it's like it's really looking into that. It's like how do we improve the experience? And very often it's not looking into that. It's like how do we improve the experience?
Speaker 1:And very often it's not about adding more Absolutely. That's so true, definitely so. Are there any? Because a lot of my students you know they want to go in and they want to do consulting work down the road when they finish their master's degree and or they want to go into corporate or higher education. So they want to break into something else, but most of the time it's consulting and they're trying to do that. So are there any specific leadership skills or styles that you think are really helpful as a business owner that you think would be good for some of my students to know about that they can kind of think about as they're thinking about becoming a business owner or doing consulting work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think what is really important is really to keep up with the trends and what is working, I mean, especially in the. So, in the online space, at least I don't know about you know, in the corporate world, but like in the online space, uh, e-learning has changed so much. Yes, it has Courses that used to sell don't sell anymore. Like, even people that used to sell a lot of them and make a lot of money are now shifting their model, because people are done with spending money on things where they don't get the result, they don't have the level of support, they don't have the interaction, and even people start to and I don't know if we'll talk about AI but to expect some type of AI support and tool, not to replace anyone, right, but like as an extra level, because we know it's an accelerator, right, it can be an accelerator.
Speaker 2:So it's just keeping up with the trends and knowing what works, what are, like the emerging technologies and tools that are coming up, and just being able to also have that range of tools and technologies that you can use, because it's not one size fits all, right, it really so much depends on your audience, you know, like learning styles and even like how much time people have, right. So it's like we have to adapt. You know, when we create programs, it's not just the curriculum, but it's also looking at who is my audience, who is the audience that is going to consume, right, right. So it's really keeping up with the trends and not saying like, okay, I have one way to do it. It works for me, I'm comfortable with it.
Speaker 1:Like challenge yourself to say what is out there, you know Right, and keeping up with that so important. Yes, yeah, and a little bit about the AI. You know, one of the questions that I wanted to bring up that was on your list of questions because I want to make sure I asked a couple of those, because it kind of goes over that automation part, so how do that's something that I used to do a lot for businesses.
Speaker 2:To me. I see automation things that need and should be automated are repetitive things that don't require our expertise. You know, it's like if you've got to do it more than two, three times can it be automated. Like if you got to do it more than two, three times can it be automated. And the reason we automate these things is that it gives us more time to actually interact with people. So you automate so that you have more time to have the human connection right. So, for example, I was working with someone and she had this program and what we did is we automated some pieces inside. So people had to have gone through some type of training. You know things that they learn, so one-on-one with the client, but she would not have to repeat herself doing the same thing over and over, and they could spend the time on answering the questions and actually applying what was learned. So, to me, automation is a way to save time, but it needs to be done on things that don't require you to basically be there.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So it shouldn't be done blanket across everything. There needs to be a, it needs to be a process that takes that into consideration as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and usually those are like repetitive tasks that actually would benefit from being automated, because now you can ensure consistency, right, right, so it's not like automating because we don't want to do it anymore, you know, like you used to do something and then suddenly it's not one-on-one anymore, it's an automated thing. It's really not the same thing, right? But here we're talking about automation in the sense of defining a process, an SOP that actually you follow, that is automated and that ensures the consistency, and that's actually it's done properly, following the SOP and consistently.
Speaker 1:I love that. Wow, that's great. And so the AI is. It becomes a helping hand. You know I look at it as my digital assistant when it comes to things.
Speaker 2:So with the AI. So I mean, I'm sure you've seen things like create an online course with AI in 10 minutes and stuff like that. To me, this is not the good AI at all. Right, okay, writing your content for you, and things like that. To me, this is not how you use AI. Actually, ai is going to be as good as what you feed it. So what I've seen AI do really, really well is that when you feed it knowledge, which is your expertise, right, and then you give it context and then it's going to you ask him to help you, you know, craft something based on that, and then the result that you get now you work it, you work it again. So it's basically human. Ai and human and basically it accelerates the work. And when it comes to writing, for example, of course, now you don't have the blank page anymore because, worst case scenario, you can say I don't know what you talk about, and then it is going to start to ask you questions. But the best way to use AI is as an amplifier and an accelerator, not as a replacement.
Speaker 2:I love that Because it pulls data. I mean, if you think about it, it pulls data from the internet, right? So it's going to be what everybody says, maybe something that is even wrong or obvious, right, and definitely that's not coming from you. And we have this opportunity with AI, when we use it right, to have it know our voice. And the way I love to use it is when I have an idea. It has this analytical mind. Where it can you know, you give it like examples of writings that you've done, where you're like, yes, this is me, this sounds like me, right, and then you have this idea and then it's going to save you so much time in writing that, and then you can, you know, rework it and then just make it you know, even your own, but it's that accelerated. That's an accelerator that I really, really love with AI.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Definitely. And one thing that there's a term that we use in my department, because we use AI to help come up with the ideas, as you were talking about, and then I use it in my teaching as well just to craft those ideas.
Speaker 1:I even started it with my podcasting, too, coming up with outlines and things like that, because I kept struggling with that. But one of the terms that my director in my department started using, and now it's all across the university, is the first draft principle. So that gives us that sense that, okay, this is the first draft, this is never going to be where we're going to copy it and paste it into the curriculum Exactly, and it's never going to be that there's going to always be, like you said, that human element at the forefront, at the back end. We call it human in the loop.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like that Human in the forefront, yeah, at the back end, we call it human in the loop. Oh, I like that Human in the loop. So it's always, yeah, it's human. So I say AI is an accelerator that allows us to be more human, because now we can do more, yes, more interaction with people. Right, so that's one way we use AI. Another way that we use AI is to help students do their homework, for example. So, you know, when somebody gets stuck and they have to maybe write an email, there can be a little AI tool that is going to ask them a couple of questions and going to draft maybe the first version of that email. Right, right, but it's going to be again the quality of the questions that we ask that are going to drive the quality of the draft right, right, and the quality of the answers right, right. For example, we do, for example, ai tools that work really well in the e-learning space are role play.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I love role playing with AI.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because role playing with someone is weird. Okay, it can be weird, like unless you know the person, like she's a friend and like you role play, but like it's completely objective and you can say you can have different level of role play. You say, okay, let's role play a whole conversation with an employee that is not performing and that I might have to let go, let's just role play. And then you can say, well, let's role play. And today you're going to be a student that also understand that, or an employee that understand that they are not performing and it's not working out as well. So the conversation is pretty much going to go well, right, right.
Speaker 2:And now you are the employee that is like doesn't understand where this is coming from and it's like questioning why you're even doing so. You see, you can even like create all these tools and what this does. It puts the student not as a passive learner but as a doer, active learning, right, exactly, it boosts their confidence, right, their confidence right there, um it. It keeps them committed to the program, uh, because they are seeing that they are making progress and they are feeling supported. It's interactive, so it's really like they don't feel like alone, almost, you know, in front of the computer, especially for right right, exactly, but it doesn't have to be just for e-learning.
Speaker 2:You know any, any, any program could have these extra tools that you could use either to practice or to help you write something with 20 names for your online program, wow. So you might say, okay, well, I can just type that in chat GPT, right, or anywhere and it's going to give me, it's going to give you 20 boring names, right, and you're going to say no to none of them, right, right? But if you create the tool so that it asks questions like what kind of experience do you want people to feel like? Is that a community feeling? Like, do you want to create, like a safe space for these people or is it a hub where you want to have thousands of people, right? And so when you ask these key questions, then you're going to have a better answer instead of saying give me 20 names for my course I teach painting.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah that's amazing, I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great. No-transcript, the better the output, right. So that's why, if you just ask it, give me 20 names, it's going to give you 20 names, right, right, but you can have better. Another thing that we found with AI. So this is a great tip, even for you if you're using AI ask AI to criticize their work.
Speaker 2:It comes up with something. Criticize their work. It comes up with something. And maybe you said I want the email to be engaging. You know, positive, like. You know, like maybe there is a certain action that you want people to get on what you're writing. And then you say, okay, okay, that sounds good. Now I want you to criticize your work, and what it is going to do is you'll see, it's going to analyze the answer and it's going to tell you okay, so I did good here because, as you can see, it's engaging. However, there was a place where I could do better. You're right, right here. Do you want me to write it again? And it's going to give you another version, and that version is going to be so much better.
Speaker 1:So much better. Yeah, that's interesting because I did that with. I don't know if you've used canva, their ai tools, but recently they released canva code where you can go in and you can ask it to code things where it can do interactive types of content. So I did just a couple of testing items I did. I did a historical timeline for instructional design and then I wanted to do a vocabulary game for instructional design terms and it was so funny because the first draft it did. It did pretty good.
Speaker 1:But then I asked it can you please add different elements? Like I asked it to add a for the timeline. I asked it to add a photo or an image to the back of the card because you would have the front where it had the historical event and then you would flip the card over and it would have the more information about it. But I'm like I want to have, I don't want to just have text, I want to have something where they have a visual component. So then it did that and it took a little while to do it.
Speaker 1:But then it finally came back and I flipped over and I got to the Addy model and it had this circular thing and it had A-D-D-I-E-E two E's and I was like whoops, mistake. And so then I looked at some others and it just some of the images just didn't turn out quite well. So I asked it to please correct it again and it did that. But it was funny. I'm like you made a mistake here and it was like oh, sorry about the mistake, I'll correct that, but yeah, it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2:And that's why you always have to remember that the information might not be correct, right, it's not right, so you cannot. So that's why you have to again, you have to feed it that expertise, right, that either idea or like. Even if you're looking for content or podcast ideas, you could say this is the message you know, like I want. I want to talk about this. I want to inspire people with this. Now give me titles of podcast episodes that will make people want to listen.
Speaker 1:Right, that draws them in Exactly.
Speaker 2:That draws them in, right, that keeps that, sparks their curiosity, right, or you know, or something else, right? So it's like the more you tell it instead of saying just give me 20, 20 podcast titles. You know I'm an educational designer. Give me 20 podcast titles. It's going to be super boring. Might as well.
Speaker 1:Do Google, you know yeah exactly that's where that prompt engineering really comes into place, because you can have a conversation with it Instead of just giving it one line. I tend to want to have a conversation with it. We have an internal AI tool that is similar to ChatGPT. It uses that technology, but what's nice is that it keeps our information at the institution proprietary so it doesn't go out on the web.
Speaker 1:But it's really great because it has Text Insight, which is where it can take lengthy text and it can make it a little bit more digestible. And then it can also take transcripts from meetings, like from Microsoft Teams and Zoom, and then you just upload the transcript and you say can you do? And we have prompts. We have a whole entire OneNote notebook that has a prompt library of all these different things that we can utilize. But I don't always go with the same prompt. I try to take it and, you know, change it a little bit and I noticed that the AI will will react differently each time. Even if I put the same prompt in, it'll come up with something different. So it's very interesting how it's never one in the same. No, it's not, it's not, you know.
Speaker 2:And another thing, that. So they did some tests and they found that if you use the voice version instead of writing, you know, so I don't know if you have that on on your tool, but like where you speak instead of writing, you get even better results. Because we just always say much more when we write. When we speak, sorry, right. When we speak, we say a lot more than when we write. And so when we write, when we speak, sorry, right. When we speak, we say a lot more than when we write.
Speaker 2:And so when we write, it's like it doesn't have to be perfect, the sentence doesn't have to be well-formed, we really need to see it as someone. That's like sitting next to us and you're asking a question, and it could be something like okay, I need to write an article, but I don't know, I'm not inspired. Like, help me, ask me questions, and then it's going to ask questions, literally like if it's a person. So you need to use it very differently than you use Google. Google is a search engine, right here, it's very different. You know it can actually think right. Here, it's very different, you know it can actually think right. So it's literally having a conversation.
Speaker 1:Right. That's why they call it a language learning model, right.
Speaker 2:Because it's having that conversation yeah. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love that Great. So what are some tips and advice that you can share with those who are currently in this master's program in instructional design at Grand Canyon University? With those who are currently in this master's program in instructional design at Grand Canyon University because we've actually were implementing AI technology into the revisions that we've done recently with this particular program and so I've actually got a taste of that and I can see where students are actually able to, they're going to be able in their assignments to utilize AI to where they can. Actually, when they're storyboarding, for example, they can utilize AI and say can you help me with this storyboard and get the ideas out and things like that and scripting and things like that. So is there any type of advice you would give to them? It can be on the AI or it can be in general, like with course development and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have a couple actually. So, on AI, I would say that with AI, it's easy to get carried away, right. It's like let's put AI everywhere because it's fun. And it's like gamification. You're like, when it's too much, it's too much, okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it's about strategically knowing that there might be a point of difficulty. Where can we use AI to help them? Is there a prompt we can give them? Do they need to practice this right? Giving them these tools? So really seeing AI as a tool where we can create tools for them, but not putting it like everywhere for the sake of using AI. Oh, I want to use AI. Where should I put it? Looking at the problem that we're trying to solve and see if it can be solved with AI, I think that's really important because otherwise you get drawn into everything that's going on with AI right now, all the tools that are coming up. You start playing and creating images and doing all this stuff, and it's really like we have to stay focused on what it is that we want to do. We want to create a program that really creates the best experience for our listeners, so that they see they are making progress, so they get to the end, with the actual end result. You know that they sign up for, that they paid for right.
Speaker 1:And it's about.
Speaker 2:What is it that we can do and provide and how can AI help accelerate that? Like you know potential problems that people might have, you know, in completing the homework or things like that, it could be all still like that AI can do. Review, you know, just review my essay. You know, like, here is my essay, what do you think you know? And things like that. Right.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I would say more generally that it's really about I mean, that's how I feel, you know, when I that's why I got into this. You know, helping people design the program because I was so frustrated about what people were doing. You know they would like record long, one hour video. It's like, yeah, it's amazing. No, like it's, it's, it's, it's boring to watch, it's not interactive, people don't know when they need to do something, or the end of the video, and they're like, okay, what do I do now?
Speaker 2:It's really keeping up with those trends, like I was saying, but it's also remembering that the end goal is that we want people to get results. It's the learner in mind, that is what we love to get results right. So it's the learner in mind, that is what we love. I mean, that's one thing. I think that's for everyone, not just instructional designer, but that is what we love, how we love to learn. But we have to adapt to our audience and who this is for, you know, if they are younger people, if they are older people, like if they prefer to listen or if they prefer to watch a video or to read, we have, like this, multimedia, multiple ways for people to go through the programs. Right, that exist, that's been there for years, but it's really understanding that, like what is their method of learning and it's different for everyone, right? So trying to and incorporating that into the programs that we create, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yes, being able to know there's different learning styles and yeah, be able to adapt it to that.
Speaker 2:Exactly, even within an audience. You know there are different learning styles, but they are also based on the audience that you have. You know the busy corporate executive doesn't have a lot of time. If you tell them there is a one hour video, they're like I'm never going to be able to fit it in, like I don't know where it's going to go, right. So you have to keep these things in mind as well. You have to keep these things in mind as well. Also, like the age of the student, right? A younger student would want something probably shorter, more playful, where he's rewarded when that makes him want to seek, be curious to see what is the next thing right Versus an executive doesn't want to get a badge that says you did it right. So it's, you know, it's this thing. I think that can really be the difference between a good curriculum and a great program.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, my students right now they've been learning about multimedia learning styles. You know, like Mayer's Principles of Multimedia and it's. Yeah, they students right now they've been learning about multimedia learning styles. You know, like Mayer's principles of multimedia and it's yeah, they can see in the real world where things don't turn out well and yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting because one of the questions I posted them in my classroom assessment technique this week was about audio, that good audio makes a huge difference. And the question asked them if you have a really great video that has one that has crisp, clear audio, but the, the rest of it is horrible, do you still listen to it Because the audio is great and but the you know the multimedia part on the screen and the video is not great. Or you know what, if the audio is horrible but the, the visuals are great, you know which is, the audio is horrible but the visuals are great, you know which is. And so one of my students answered and she said, yeah, the audio was crisp, clear, but the video elements, like the interactive elements, was not there at all, but she kept listening to it because the audio was so good. So it's very interesting how you have the auditory learners, and then you have the ones that are more visual, and then you have the kinesthetic right that want both.
Speaker 1:So it's a very interesting question and I hope more of my students answer that, because it's kind of neat to hear those examples of experiences they've had. Did they keep listening or not? You know, based on the audio quality. Yeah, so, yeah, so interesting. We could go on for so long. I love it.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, I thank you so much for coming and giving so much of your insight, because I think this is great. Especially with AI technology, we want to be able to do it in a incorporating, in a meaningful way, and not have it, like you said, be a one size fits all or use it to replace that human interaction or things that only we can do as human beings. So being able to use it as an assistant, as a tool and and knowing when to use it. So I think that's so important and you know my, my students love that being able to know, know those things and be able to digest that and and then apply it to the real, real world. So that's great, exactly, I love that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, nathalie. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me, jackie, thank you. Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today. Your support means the world to me. If you'd like to help keep the podcast going, you can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review or offer a monetary contribution. Every act of support, big or small, makes a difference and I'm truly thankful for you.
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